User talk:WFRMSF
Solid and Liquid Pro-tip: never try to bring real world genetics into the world of Metal Gear. The game never implies anything more tangible than "recessive = inferior, dominant = superior", so trying to bring real world genetics into the equation simply causes headaches, and we are never given enough information to decode it in any other fashion. You're reading too deep into the matter, but in doing so are jumping to conclusions about what characters mean when they say certain things. I've got some key things for you here, from MGS1: Liquid: Yes, twins, but we're not ordinary twins... we're twins linked by cursed genes. Les enfants terribles. You're fine. You got all the old man's dominant genes. I got all the '''flawed, recessive genes.' Everything was done so that you would be the greatest of his children. The only reason I exist is so they could create you.'' And then later, he goes on to say: Liquid: Love!? It's hate!! He always told me I was '''inferior' and now I'll have my revenge!!'' See? He uses both "recessive" and "inferior" to refer to himself. And then, the ending conversation between Ocelot and Solidus, where Ocelot reveals the truth: Ocelot: Yes. The '''inferior' one was the winner after all. ...That's right. Until the very end, Liquid thought he was the inferior one.'' So you see, it's clear that in the world of Metal Gear, genetics are not the same as they are in the real world. Kojima probably messed up to some degree, which is leading to your confusion. The game is attempting to simplify it, and in doing so we should only list the information the game provides us with. There's no point in posting original research, especially since it's based on conjecture and assumptions. --Fantomas 09:26, September 5, 2010 (UTC) :Yes, I have absolutely no problem with Liquid being the inferior one because it's been told that Big boss has gave Liquid the misinterpretation of him being the inferior one and Ocelot later on reveiled the truth. Although Ocelot says Solid the inferior one, Inferior does not necessarily mean recessive even though Liquid has assumed recessive = inferior. The truth is Inferior/Superior is just a reference to it's class ranks and shouldn't be related to genetics. Solid Snake and Naked Snake shares the same hair color, eye color, and the tone of voice and with that proof, Solid Snake obviously inherits 100% Naked Sanke's dominant genes. It's not about the diffrence between the real world and MG world's genetics, It's about common sense. WFRMSF 09:51, September 5, 2010 (UTC) (71.141.228.12) ::Again, it's all just assumptions, with no basis within the game itself. There's no point taking things from real life when the game clearly establishes it's own rules as to how these things work. You're over-complicating it when the game is clearly trying to simplify it for a reason. It's all well and good bringing in how Solid looks more like Big Boss than Liquid does, but that's ignoring the fact that they hint that the dominant/recessive genes could only be referring to the Soldier Genes, and not to Big Boss's Genes in general. --Fantomas 10:08, September 5, 2010 (UTC) :::Again, what we're talking about is only about the inferior/superior, which most of us don't really see the relation to genetics. Sure Solid is the inferior one but we can't just assume dominant/recessive = superior/inferior just because Liquid brought it up. We have to use the whole picture to actutally make the fact relevent, not just this one part where Liquid made this assumption of the rankings and genetics being the same. Also, sometimes it doesn't hurt to bring some reality's fact into a game series perspective, especially this one. Solid Snake can be the "inferior" clone with dominant inheritance and Liquid Snake being the "superior" clone with recessive inheritance because again, ranking does not really mean genetics even though Liquid at one point assumed. WFRMSF 10:21, September 5, 2010 (UTC) ::::It's related to genetics because they flat out say it's related to genetics. You're missing the entire point of what I'm saying. And now you're saying we should consider the only two scenes were they bring up the matter to not be the whole picture, but just jump to conclusions about the rest. Yes we can assume "dominant/recessive = superior/inferior just because Liquid brought it up" because that's the whole point of the scene. We can't go "that's not how it works, he must be wrong", because the game never stops and says "Liquid, that's wrong". Other characters fully acknowledge what he was saying, lending weight to his words. That's just how it is in their world. We can't just assume he was wrong because we disagree with it. The game flat out tells us "dominant/recessive = superior/inferior" and that's how we have it in this wiki. That's how the game presents it, that's how we present it. Simple as. --Fantomas 10:30, September 5, 2010 (UTC) :::::What I'm trying to do is to seperate the fact of class rankings away from genetics, and we don't need these 2 scenes to determine that class rankings and genetics are unrelated. And once more, we CAN'T assume what is true just because Liquid or any characters have brought up in a brief statement, to not to argue what you've point out about the dominant/recessive =/= superior/inferior, that's why I'm saying we should look at the whole picture. Also another possible statement, Liquid's definition of superior/inferior can be distintive from Ocelots, or simply Ocelot can be using the description "inferior" as a metaphor to describe Snake. And most importantly, the names of the genes do not determine which are "better" to rank which being the superior (better) or inferior (worse). Solid Snake being the one with recessive inhertitance just makes not sense whatsoever due to the features he share with Naked Snake. And I really want you to look over the posts on this forum where there's usually posts that details this very discussion starting around page 6. Many statements in this case can lead to many possible answers, which makes this confusing. WFRMSF 10:59, September 5, 2010 (UTC) ::::::And if we can't assume what is true when Liquid flat out states it, than how can we assume anything is true. Your argument is flawed in that respect. The games never suggest anything except for what we have listed here. As a wiki, we can only state what the games present to us as fact, not what the fans have decided using their own assumptions, and that's assuming that any of them even know what they're talking about to begin with (which we don't know, they could all be bullshitting for all I know). For the fifth or sixth time, the games themselves only ever suggest "recessive = inferior, dominant = superior" so that is what we have. As the head-admin here it's my duty to enforce this. --Fantomas 17:14, September 5, 2010 (UTC) ::::::I'm not trying to argue with you and I'm not using any fanbased description, I'm trying to bring in a scientific prospective here. Also, I may also support your side of the argument due to the fact I will later explain. Don't get me wrong, I respect your standpoint but I also believe a really good relevent reason is needed to back that up. And I don't think a certain character in the game would provide a bold statement by simply just saying it. I can tell you that just because biological or other scientific facts are never shown or mentioned in the game, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist in it. I'm sure when the whole biology thing kicks into the games, I bet you and the others might have a different standpoint. And now the reason I started to support your side of the argument and stopped reverting is due to the fact of the confusion over this whole genetics thing itself, your side or my side can be supported either way. Naked Snake and Solid Snake both share the same physical features supporting the fact Solid is dominant. And I've been told that the foxdie only targets the dominant genes which killed Liquid, not Snake to support the fact that Solid is recessive. That is actually where the confusion kicks in, makes me wonder could Solid Snake inherit not 100% of big boss's recessive genes. I think we should remove the genetic statements from Metal Gear Wiki altogether because non of us now have the absolute fact on hand. I think we might have to wait for Konami to release another Metal Gear game or saga to explain about genetics clearly. WFRMSF 01:02, September 6, 2010 (UTC) Urgh, no. We're not getting anywhere. This argument is moving in circles. I'll just say this again For the fifth or sixth time, the games themselves only ever suggest "recessive = inferior, dominant = superior" so that is what we have. As the head-admin here it's my duty to enforce this. --Fantomas 07:17, September 6, 2010 (UTC) :Keep giving me the same answer "the games themselves only ever suggest "recessive = inferior, dominant = superior" so that is what we have." '''for the fifth or sixth time, or even the 10 millionth time, my response to that will always be the same, dominant =/= superior, recessive =/= inferior. 'I mean you as "head admin" I respect your choices and decisions, but enforcing your arrogance just because you're at that 'head admin" level doesn't really help out. If you can bypass my argument of '''d=/=s, r=/=i '''with another, but stronger viewpoint than simply just a characters' speech, it'll be great. If your answer is still, "this is what we have" then that's what's really making this argument moving in circles, the details "we have" couldn't always be true. That's why my suggestion is to remove this genetics issue altogether, because of "what we have" does not mean it's relevent. With all this "pride of assumption", it really brings nothing forward but makes metal gear wiki into another fan-page rather than a source gatherer. Notice that Metal Gear Wiki is not the only (so-called) source gather site for the Metal Gear series of the world wide web. WFRMSF 07:59, September 6, 2010 (UTC) ::Yes. The Metal Gear Wiki is a source gatherer. What are our sources? The games themselves. What do the games tell us? "recessive = inferior, dominant = superior". You can't assume what Liquid Snake was saying is a lie just because you don't like it, which is the only reason you are pushing this theory outside of your original research (which Wiki's are not allowed to post as a general rule). It would make us a fan-site to do that. It's not source gathering if you are taking things from outside the source and forcing it into it. And I'm not "enforcing my arrogance" ''I'm enforcing the rules Wikia have set in place for a reason. Please try and understand this. And could you please stop badmouthing the site. If you have any problems with anything else posted here please speak up. This is a public wiki which anyone can edit after all. I'd like some claims to back up your accusations of the site. --Fantomas 09:00, September 6, 2010 (UTC) :: ::Well, what ever you desire, I'm just saying the games have not clearly state the recessive as being the inferior whatsover. Sure Liquid believes that Solid received all of Big Boss' superior genes, and that he, Liquid, was destined to be inferior, but later revealed by Ocelot after the credits that Liquid was intentionally deceived in order to drive him to carry on Big Boss' legacy. But how is that in any way proving inferior is recessive and so forth? Yes, I get the in-game reference but how does that prove the fact? Notice that I want to agree with you but there's too many ways to support that Solid is dominant. I understand it's confusing, and I guess this is the same reason why other sites about Metal Gear never mentioned about the twin snake's genetics because truthfully, non of us know for sure. The most they can go is name them "inferior genes" and "superior genes" which can be meant metaphorically to lead us the confusion. We'll have to ask Konomi or Hideo Kojima to discover the true fact, and I think that way is way better than simply jumping into conclusions, because this is what I see people are doing right now on MGwiki. Other details on MGwiki absent in relevant references explains this very issue as well... WFRMSF 09:27, September 6, 2010 (UTC) ::Yes they have stated that "the recessive as being the inferior" because Liquid flat out says it. Liquid says he is both recessive and inferior, let's not assume he's mistaken about them being interchangeable terms, because what evidence do we have against it?. You go on to say "but there's too many ways to support that Solid is dominant" but, no, there isn't. There is only one: The fact that he looks more like Big Boss than Liquid does. That's a very loose piece of evidence, and is merely an aesthetic choice made during the development of MGS3. It should not be taken into account, because MGS3 was not planned when MGS1 was made, so any choices/revelations made in it are irrelevant. It's not confusing, you're making it confusing when I wouldn't be surprised if it was done this way in the first place to avoid such confusions. --Fantomas 09:45, September 6, 2010 (UTC) :: ::Ah, I see what you're trying to point out. Okay, When "Liquid flat out says it", wouldn't that too be a loose piece of evidence by comprehending/reading? because you claim the MGS3's Naked Snake's appearence is a loose piece of evidence by viewing and hearing, (am I right?). Inferior means "lower in rank". When Ocelot says Solid Snake's the inferior one, that could probably imply only during the shadow moses incident because Liquid was bascially in charge of the shadow moses take over during the events of MGS1. Remember, he refered Liquid as the boss? ("man with the same code as the boss"). I mean after all this talk with you, I still wonder where you can pinpoint the exact quote in the game that says "the recessive as being the inferior", because I only remember Liquid saying he has the flawed recessive genes and was chosen to be the inferior one. Which doesn't necesserily mean these 2 meanings are linked or related together, remember in the English defintion inferior literally means, "lower in rank" and recessive literally means "not present". Just because an inherited genetic trait is not present in a human (recessive gene), it doesn't mean that trait of genes are "weaker" (General Biology). WFRMSF 11:40, September 6, 2010 (UTC)]] :::Oh, I've just realised what you've been trying to say this whole time. You're taking inferior at complete face value in it's meaning. I don't mean to be offensive, but is English your first language? Here is the fragment from Ocelot's speech from the end of MGS1: :::Ocelot: Yes. The inferior one was the winner after all. ...That's right. Until the very end, Liquid thought he was the inferior one. Yes, sir. I agree completely. It takes a well-balanced individual... such as yourself to rule the world. No, sir. No one knows that you were the third one... Solidus. What should I do about the woman? Yes sir. I'll keep her under surveillance. :::As you can see the reason Ocelot's mention of Solid as the true Inferior is relevant in this discussion is because it's a complete discussion about the Sons of Big Boss. Ocelot goes on to talk about Solidus, and how he is the "well balanced individual". You need to detach yourself away from the literal definition of the word "Inferior", and see that they're using it to refer to the Sons of Big Boss. Next, I understand that in real life, "because an inherited genetic trait is not present in a human (recessive gene), it doesn't mean that trait of genes are "weaker" (General Biology)" but we are clearly working with a bastardized and simplified version of Biology here. --Fantomas 18:06, September 6, 2010 (UTC) :::I see what you guys are trying to point out now, only use it in a simplified way, meh, I still think it has a weak viewpoint. But I don't ever recall my viewpoint is any way stronger, that's why I'm saying just leave it as "inferior genes and superior genes" to avoid any conflict between MGS1 and MGS3/PO/PW. Well, I believe we'll somehow reveil the truth sooner or later. And yes, English is my first language. WFRMSF 19:41, September 6, 2010 (UTC) ::::Just to correct you, there is NO conflict between Big Boss's appearance and those of the any of the clones. All the clones look alike (i.e. similar to Big Boss), even Liquid. Solid and Liquid are always described as being physically identical in the game. Liquid's voice and hair color were caused by environmental factors (i.e. raised in UK; hair naturally bleached by the sun's rays in the Middle East, according to character artist Yoji Shinkawa, though this was more of a game design aesthetic, to distinguish the two main characters; darker skin tone for similar reasons). Also, Liquid's eye color has never really been established in canon, since even Solid Snake's eye color changed throughout the series. Therefore, neither of the Twin Snake's had 100% of their genes modified, otherwise the two would look different in physical appearance. Only a select number of genes were modified for "superior"/"inferior" expression. Therefore, Liquid physically looks just as much like Big Boss as Solid Snake. --Bluerock 08:12, September 7, 2010 (UTC) :::: ::::Yeah, my thoughts relates to yours right now. But to avoid the confusion, we should include the details in the articles on how the inferior is related to recessive and what you have explained about the enviromental conditions that caused the change of liquid or else it can confuse a lot of people like myself earlier because many of us found it awkward to discover Solid Snake inherits the recessive genes when he appears dominant, until you explained how liquid was affected by the environment. I'll trust in you to straighten out the info. WFRMSF 04:26, September 8, 2010 (UTC) :::: ::::OK, now I follow on your choices of who's being the dominant and whose being the recessive but I still don't feel comfortable about it. When Ocelot reveiled the fact on whose the inferior or superior, he said nothing about genetics. Liquid's explanation of recessive/dominant (genetics) can be seperated from inferior/superior (rank) in the same scene as these 2 are not related. Fantomas and Bluerock users are giving me 2 different excuses to retain the details as is. Fantomas says after Ocelot refered Solidus as the well balanced one... and Bluerock talks about how the game aesthetics... As I read from discussions, many people still believe Solid is dominant which makes a whole lot of sense. Sunrays affacting natural hair color dye is something new to me, and David Hayter can still do Liquid's voice with a British accent instead of James Flinders but Konomi chooses not to; therefore the statement of Solid as being dominant is valid. Big Boss' hair being blonde? Because MG/MG2 expressed an aged Big Boss while Snake and Liquid were being born at the same time. Also when you noted "neither of the Twin Snakes had 100% of the genes modified" please note them in the details to avoid the confusion. WFRMSF 08:37, September 8, 2010 (UTC) :I wouldn't read too much into the hair color thing, as Solid Snake himself was intended to have blond hair in MGS too, but this aspect was later retconned, so I would disregard its relation to any genetics. Shinkawa's explanation was an attempt to rationalize this discrepancy, even though it's not perfect. :The game never clearly establishes which clone expresses Big Boss's dominant or recessive traits (whatever they may be), since all we are told of is Liquid's misinformed interpretation. These traits are shown in-game to be unrelated to the clones' external physical appearances, since Solid and Liquid appear identical in this regard. They are more likely to be related to the idea of "soldier genes," which were later injected into the Genome Soldiers, and that Liquid describes as ,"everything from strategic thinking, to the proverbial 'killer instinct.'" Of course, the exact traits which were specifically selected for expression in the Twin Snakes is not revealed. :I would also avoid the voice issue too, besides accent obviously, since Solidus isn't voiced by Hayter either (though both Solid and Solidus are voiced by the same actor in the Japanese release, so it's clearly a decision made during the game's production). I personally know twins who have lived together their whole childhood, but have still developed clearly different tones of voice and inflection. :Also, the way that the articles were written previously, had the words "superior" and "inferior" in quotation marks, to indicate that this was how the characters viewed the clones, regardless of whether they are correct to do so or not. I don't think it's correct to specify which clone expresses those certain dominant or recessive characteristics, unless one views Liquid's explanation as being accurate. :--Bluerock 12:32, September 8, 2010 (UTC) ::Although Fantomas is right in saying these sort of discussions bring about headaches (since we have so little info on the details of the cloning), I don't agree that the science in the world of Metal Gear Solid is completely divorced from reality. The characters referring to genes as "inferior" and "superior" can be explained as the characters' points of view: we never hear about these aspects from anyone directly involved with the cloning project, and the characters that do talk about them are not scientists, so it is not unlikely that they would continuously use the wrong terminology. However, this makes it even more confusing for those unaware of such considerations. I will attempt to help out with pages, where needed, if some things require more clarity. --Bluerock 18:04, September 8, 2010 (UTC)